alex_ant
Oct 9, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by gopher
Maybe we have, but nobody has provided compelling evidence to the contrary.
You must be joking. Reference after reference has been provided and you simply break from the thread, only to re-emerge in another thread later. This has happened at least twice now that I can remember.
The Mac hardware is capable of 18 billion floating calculations a second. Whether the software takes advantage of it that's another issue entirely.
My arse is capable of making 8-pound turds, but whether or not I eat enough baked beans to take advantage of that is another issue entirely. In other words,
18 gigaflops = about as likely as an 8-pound turd in my toilet. Possible, yes (under the most severely ridiculous condtions). Real-world, no.
If someone is going to argue that Macs don't have good floating point performance, just look at the specs.
For the - what is this, fifth? - time now: AltiVec is incapable of double precision, and is capable of accelerating only that code which is written specifically to take advantage of it. Which is some of it. Which means any high "gigaflops" performance quotes deserve large asterisks next to them.
If they really want good performance and aren't getting it they need to contact their favorite developer to work with the specs and Apple's developer relations.
Exactly, this is the whole problem - if a developer wants good performance and can't get it, they have to jump through hoops and waste time and money that they shouldn't have to waste.
Apple provides the hardware, it is up to developer companies to utilize the hardware the best way they can. If they can't utilize Apple's hardware to its most efficient mode, then they should find better developers.
Way to encourage Mac development, huh? "Hey guys, come develop for our platform! We've got a 3.5% national desktop market share and a 2% world desktop market share, and we have an uncertain future! We want YOU to spend time and money porting your software to OUR platform, and on top of that, we want YOU to go the extra mile to waste time and money that you shouldn't have to waste just to ensure that your code doesn't run like a dog on our ancient wack-job hack of a processor!"
If you are going to complain that Apple doesn't have good floating point performance, don't use a PC biased spec like Specfp.
"PC biased spec like SPECfp?" Yes, the reason PPC does so poorly in SPEC is because SPECfp is biased towards Intel, AMD, Sun, MIPS, HP/Compaq, and IBM (all of whose chips blow the G4 out of the water, and not only the x86 chips - the workstation and server chips too, literally ALL of them), and Apple's miserable performance is a conspiracy engineered by The Man, right?
Go by actual floating point calculations a second.
Why? FLOPS is as dumb a benchmark as MIPS. That's the reason cross-platform benchmarks exist.
Nobody has shown anything to say that PCs can do more floating point calculations a second. And until someone does I stand by my claim.
An Athlon 1700+ scores about what, 575 in SPECfp2000 (depending on the system)? Results for the 1.25GHz G4 are unavailable (because Apple is ashamed to publish them), but the 1GHz does about 175. Let's be very gracious and assume the new GCC has got the 1.25GHz G4 up to 300. That's STILL terrible. So how about an accurate summary of the G4's floating point performance:
On the whole, poor.******
* Very strong on applications well-suited to AltiVec and optimized to take advantage of it.
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Maybe we have, but nobody has provided compelling evidence to the contrary.
You must be joking. Reference after reference has been provided and you simply break from the thread, only to re-emerge in another thread later. This has happened at least twice now that I can remember.
The Mac hardware is capable of 18 billion floating calculations a second. Whether the software takes advantage of it that's another issue entirely.
My arse is capable of making 8-pound turds, but whether or not I eat enough baked beans to take advantage of that is another issue entirely. In other words,
18 gigaflops = about as likely as an 8-pound turd in my toilet. Possible, yes (under the most severely ridiculous condtions). Real-world, no.
If someone is going to argue that Macs don't have good floating point performance, just look at the specs.
For the - what is this, fifth? - time now: AltiVec is incapable of double precision, and is capable of accelerating only that code which is written specifically to take advantage of it. Which is some of it. Which means any high "gigaflops" performance quotes deserve large asterisks next to them.
If they really want good performance and aren't getting it they need to contact their favorite developer to work with the specs and Apple's developer relations.
Exactly, this is the whole problem - if a developer wants good performance and can't get it, they have to jump through hoops and waste time and money that they shouldn't have to waste.
Apple provides the hardware, it is up to developer companies to utilize the hardware the best way they can. If they can't utilize Apple's hardware to its most efficient mode, then they should find better developers.
Way to encourage Mac development, huh? "Hey guys, come develop for our platform! We've got a 3.5% national desktop market share and a 2% world desktop market share, and we have an uncertain future! We want YOU to spend time and money porting your software to OUR platform, and on top of that, we want YOU to go the extra mile to waste time and money that you shouldn't have to waste just to ensure that your code doesn't run like a dog on our ancient wack-job hack of a processor!"
If you are going to complain that Apple doesn't have good floating point performance, don't use a PC biased spec like Specfp.
"PC biased spec like SPECfp?" Yes, the reason PPC does so poorly in SPEC is because SPECfp is biased towards Intel, AMD, Sun, MIPS, HP/Compaq, and IBM (all of whose chips blow the G4 out of the water, and not only the x86 chips - the workstation and server chips too, literally ALL of them), and Apple's miserable performance is a conspiracy engineered by The Man, right?
Go by actual floating point calculations a second.
Why? FLOPS is as dumb a benchmark as MIPS. That's the reason cross-platform benchmarks exist.
Nobody has shown anything to say that PCs can do more floating point calculations a second. And until someone does I stand by my claim.
An Athlon 1700+ scores about what, 575 in SPECfp2000 (depending on the system)? Results for the 1.25GHz G4 are unavailable (because Apple is ashamed to publish them), but the 1GHz does about 175. Let's be very gracious and assume the new GCC has got the 1.25GHz G4 up to 300. That's STILL terrible. So how about an accurate summary of the G4's floating point performance:
On the whole, poor.******
* Very strong on applications well-suited to AltiVec and optimized to take advantage of it.
d0minick
Mar 18, 05:59 AM
Option 3; STOP trying to cheat the system, and START using your iDevice the way the manufacturer designed it and the way your carrier supports it. (Is it unfair? YES! Are all of us iPhone users getting hosed, even though there's now two carriers? YES)
And while you're at it, knock off the piracy with the napster/limewire/torrent crap.
(Yeah, I said it! SOMEBODY had to!)
LOL Holier then thou.
Hey, some sheep aren't meant to stray from the herd. Don't knock the others.
And while you're at it, knock off the piracy with the napster/limewire/torrent crap.
(Yeah, I said it! SOMEBODY had to!)
LOL Holier then thou.
Hey, some sheep aren't meant to stray from the herd. Don't knock the others.
Sodner
Apr 21, 01:42 PM
This entire thread is hilarious.
May be it's time to let the Android users in on the joke:
You are all owners of iphones.
Whatever is different from a real iphone is just a cover up by Apple.
They ousted Schmitt from the board of directors and gave him the phone number for the retired dude in Mexico who was on the iphone development team.
They then promised that guy a permanent cure from "Montezuma's Revenge" (rampant in Mexico)if he would only share his expertise on the iphone.
Trouble is he doesn't remember all the iphone details, so what you get with the Android is an iphone with whatever he can remember.
Some manufacturers are trying to fill in the blanks or give these things for FREE so nobody can really complain. (They do, see my sig below)
In summary, thank you all for using iphones with different names and recognizing that ONLY APPLE put a device together you all love now .
It makes for fun reading:-)
Copy on dudes and Happy Easter!:-)
Amen, hallelujah, someone pass they Tylenol. :apple:
May be it's time to let the Android users in on the joke:
You are all owners of iphones.
Whatever is different from a real iphone is just a cover up by Apple.
They ousted Schmitt from the board of directors and gave him the phone number for the retired dude in Mexico who was on the iphone development team.
They then promised that guy a permanent cure from "Montezuma's Revenge" (rampant in Mexico)if he would only share his expertise on the iphone.
Trouble is he doesn't remember all the iphone details, so what you get with the Android is an iphone with whatever he can remember.
Some manufacturers are trying to fill in the blanks or give these things for FREE so nobody can really complain. (They do, see my sig below)
In summary, thank you all for using iphones with different names and recognizing that ONLY APPLE put a device together you all love now .
It makes for fun reading:-)
Copy on dudes and Happy Easter!:-)
Amen, hallelujah, someone pass they Tylenol. :apple:
DemSpursBro
Apr 11, 08:21 AM
I love building my own rig every year and it keeps me current with the ever evolving computer technology.
Just out of curiosity, why do you build one each year?
Just out of curiosity, why do you build one each year?
leekohler
Apr 15, 10:20 AM
Agreed. But you know what, some people deserve not one ounce of respect.
You would be one of them. It stings when the mirror is held up in front of you, doesn't it? I was like you at one time too, and I know where you are right now. At some point, you will come to understand that there is a difference between people who are simply trying to be themselves (us) and people who are trying to keep us from being ourselves (social conservatives). One deserves respect, one does not.
You would be one of them. It stings when the mirror is held up in front of you, doesn't it? I was like you at one time too, and I know where you are right now. At some point, you will come to understand that there is a difference between people who are simply trying to be themselves (us) and people who are trying to keep us from being ourselves (social conservatives). One deserves respect, one does not.
rasmasyean
Mar 12, 03:34 AM
What the hell? Why doesn't the wind blow it into China instead??? :D
Anyways, that seems kinda extreme. That looks worse than a nuclear missle strike.
Anyways, that seems kinda extreme. That looks worse than a nuclear missle strike.
Bill McEnaney
Apr 23, 04:24 PM
You have to step back, in order to see the big picture.
He could be standing in the middle of the Andromeda galaxy, and it would be of no value.
So, all biblical days are Solar days?
Perhaps God goes by a much longer passage of time for His days. ;)
The point is that the word "day" is vague. Time measures change. But St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, and Boethius believe that God is unchanging and unchangeable. Say they're right. Then the Bible is brimming with metaphors about him that many scientific atheists misinterpret when they take literally. Bible interpretation is much harder than many people think.
He could be standing in the middle of the Andromeda galaxy, and it would be of no value.
So, all biblical days are Solar days?
Perhaps God goes by a much longer passage of time for His days. ;)
The point is that the word "day" is vague. Time measures change. But St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, and Boethius believe that God is unchanging and unchangeable. Say they're right. Then the Bible is brimming with metaphors about him that many scientific atheists misinterpret when they take literally. Bible interpretation is much harder than many people think.
eawmp1
Apr 22, 10:08 PM
Do you have some more reliable source? Mind reading?
We're not making life-altering decisions here, and as such I don't think that it would be too hazardous to assume that the poll takers were being truthful.
By this logic, every poll ever taken is not a reliable source of information.
Relax...just being a doubting Thomas, or devil's advocate, if you wish.
One could argue decisions about being an atheist, agnostic, or believer are life altering.
The demographics and worldwide distribution of those who identify themselves as atheist are interesting. There is a likely overlap with those who post here.
We're not making life-altering decisions here, and as such I don't think that it would be too hazardous to assume that the poll takers were being truthful.
By this logic, every poll ever taken is not a reliable source of information.
Relax...just being a doubting Thomas, or devil's advocate, if you wish.
One could argue decisions about being an atheist, agnostic, or believer are life altering.
The demographics and worldwide distribution of those who identify themselves as atheist are interesting. There is a likely overlap with those who post here.
Povilas
Oct 8, 08:10 AM
I don't understand why some of you are having such a hard time believing this.
The iPhone is great, it's not going any where. It is however one device from one company, and it's never going to be low (or even mid) end [of the market].
Android has the world at it's feet, really. It has an apps store (with 15,000 apps so far), you're not locked in to using this apps store though, others can come along, or you can just copy an app to your phone and install it (no jailbreaking crap needed).
Windows Mobile is a dead horse, iPhone OS is closed, but people want smart phones. Android to the rescue.
Any manufacturer can take Android, they can design any handset with any features they like to sell in different markets and at different budgets. They don't have to invest a fortune in developing an OS themselves, or the infrastructure to support it. It's all done for them. If they want to they can have a few devs customising Android to some extent, but it's not a huge commitment. They can just as easily leave it alone and not have to do anything with it.
Really seems like many a manufacturers wet dream.
iPhone OS is closed and you can buy apps only on the App Store. For other ways to work you need to jailbreak. Android has no such restriction, but you have no guarantee that app you are buying is not some trojan horse or it has 1000 other bad things.
The iPhone is great, it's not going any where. It is however one device from one company, and it's never going to be low (or even mid) end [of the market].
Android has the world at it's feet, really. It has an apps store (with 15,000 apps so far), you're not locked in to using this apps store though, others can come along, or you can just copy an app to your phone and install it (no jailbreaking crap needed).
Windows Mobile is a dead horse, iPhone OS is closed, but people want smart phones. Android to the rescue.
Any manufacturer can take Android, they can design any handset with any features they like to sell in different markets and at different budgets. They don't have to invest a fortune in developing an OS themselves, or the infrastructure to support it. It's all done for them. If they want to they can have a few devs customising Android to some extent, but it's not a huge commitment. They can just as easily leave it alone and not have to do anything with it.
Really seems like many a manufacturers wet dream.
iPhone OS is closed and you can buy apps only on the App Store. For other ways to work you need to jailbreak. Android has no such restriction, but you have no guarantee that app you are buying is not some trojan horse or it has 1000 other bad things.
TwinCities Dan
Apr 8, 10:38 PM
Apple will buy Nintendo eventually.
It's over for Nintendo.
Get ready for the iwii
That is an interesting idea, but Nintendo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo) has survived 122 years of business... ;)
It's over for Nintendo.
Get ready for the iwii
That is an interesting idea, but Nintendo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo) has survived 122 years of business... ;)
NebulaClash
Apr 28, 01:58 PM
You see to be forgetting there is ALWAYS something more powerful than a standard desktop... there is always something more powerful than a laptop.. and so on. So while in 10 years there will be octocore tablets... the software out in the real world will need Decacore desktop processor to run effeciently.
By the "real world" you are ignoring the vast majority of users who need nothing like the power of a standard desktop today, and won't need software requiring a decacore processor in 10 years. Power users will always have PCs. The other 90% of humanity will do the majority of their work on tablets.
By the "real world" you are ignoring the vast majority of users who need nothing like the power of a standard desktop today, and won't need software requiring a decacore processor in 10 years. Power users will always have PCs. The other 90% of humanity will do the majority of their work on tablets.
Multimedia
Oct 8, 10:30 AM
I meant quad-core package (socket) - be it Clovertown/Woodcrest or Kentsfield/Conroe.
On a multi-threaded workflow, twice as many somewhat slower threads are better than half as many somewhat faster threads.
Of course, many desktop applications can't use four cores (or 8), and many feel "snappier" with fewer, faster cores.
_______________
In one demo at IDF, Intel showed a dual Woodie against the top Opteron.
The Woody was about 60% faster, using 80% of the power.
On stage, they swapped the Woodies with low-voltage Clovertowns which matched the power envelope of the Woodies that they removed. I think they said that the Clovertowns were 800 MHz slower than the Woodies.
With the Clovertowns, the system was 20% faster than the Woodies (even at 800 MHz slower per core), at almost exactly the same wattage (1 or 2 watts more). This made it 95% faster than the Opterons, still at 80% of the power draw.
You can see the demo at http://www.intel.com/idf/us/fall2006/webcast.htm - look for Gelsinger's keynote the second day.I thought so. This is the first time I have seen the term "Multi-Threaded Workflow" and I thank you for that. In the Gelsinger Keynote he calls it "Multi-Threaded Workloads".
I'm glad to see you confirm my suspicion that the 2.33GHz Dual Clovertown Mac Pro will in fact be faster than the 2.66 or 3GHz Dual Woodie when someone knows how they work simultaneously with a set of applications that can use all those cores a lot of the time. Very exciting.
Also thanks for the link to all those sessions from the IDF. Fantastic to be able to "attend" all of them. I'm stoked and looking forward to watching them ALL. I love all the new Intel self-promotional videos. Intel is happening and hip!
And no premium for that "ninth" processor when you buy a 2.66GHz Dual Clovertown after all bringing the total cost to $3,699 plus ram. So now I hope there will be TWO new lines in the Processor section of the Customize Your Mac page of the online Store:
Two 2.33GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon [Add $800]
Two 2.66GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon [Add $1200]
I now think I will opt for the 2.66GHz 8-core for $3,699 if Apple will offer it for sale.
The first 8 being a little over $400 each. With the 2.66 you get 2.64GHz more total power so it's like getting a ninth processor for +$400 IOW for no premium. Maybe Apple will only offer the 2.66GHz Clovertown so as not to confuse the buyers.
Wonder if the 2.66GHz Clovertown introduces heat issues under the hood.
On a multi-threaded workflow, twice as many somewhat slower threads are better than half as many somewhat faster threads.
Of course, many desktop applications can't use four cores (or 8), and many feel "snappier" with fewer, faster cores.
_______________
In one demo at IDF, Intel showed a dual Woodie against the top Opteron.
The Woody was about 60% faster, using 80% of the power.
On stage, they swapped the Woodies with low-voltage Clovertowns which matched the power envelope of the Woodies that they removed. I think they said that the Clovertowns were 800 MHz slower than the Woodies.
With the Clovertowns, the system was 20% faster than the Woodies (even at 800 MHz slower per core), at almost exactly the same wattage (1 or 2 watts more). This made it 95% faster than the Opterons, still at 80% of the power draw.
You can see the demo at http://www.intel.com/idf/us/fall2006/webcast.htm - look for Gelsinger's keynote the second day.I thought so. This is the first time I have seen the term "Multi-Threaded Workflow" and I thank you for that. In the Gelsinger Keynote he calls it "Multi-Threaded Workloads".
I'm glad to see you confirm my suspicion that the 2.33GHz Dual Clovertown Mac Pro will in fact be faster than the 2.66 or 3GHz Dual Woodie when someone knows how they work simultaneously with a set of applications that can use all those cores a lot of the time. Very exciting.
Also thanks for the link to all those sessions from the IDF. Fantastic to be able to "attend" all of them. I'm stoked and looking forward to watching them ALL. I love all the new Intel self-promotional videos. Intel is happening and hip!
And no premium for that "ninth" processor when you buy a 2.66GHz Dual Clovertown after all bringing the total cost to $3,699 plus ram. So now I hope there will be TWO new lines in the Processor section of the Customize Your Mac page of the online Store:
Two 2.33GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon [Add $800]
Two 2.66GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon [Add $1200]
I now think I will opt for the 2.66GHz 8-core for $3,699 if Apple will offer it for sale.
The first 8 being a little over $400 each. With the 2.66 you get 2.64GHz more total power so it's like getting a ninth processor for +$400 IOW for no premium. Maybe Apple will only offer the 2.66GHz Clovertown so as not to confuse the buyers.
Wonder if the 2.66GHz Clovertown introduces heat issues under the hood.
Dr.Gargoyle
Aug 29, 02:45 PM
Notice the words "indirectly" and "thousands" in my post, not "directly" and "millions." You are correct that GM foods will not save Africa, and also correct that African goverments are as corrupt as they come.
But you're wrong to think that genetically-altered foods won't help, especially if administed by multi-national organizations, and NOT African governemtns.
It might help starving Africans, but we could also screw up our genetical inheritance royally. Cross breeding is a problem we know too little about.
But you're wrong to think that genetically-altered foods won't help, especially if administed by multi-national organizations, and NOT African governemtns.
It might help starving Africans, but we could also screw up our genetical inheritance royally. Cross breeding is a problem we know too little about.
Multimedia
Oct 28, 12:50 PM
I am in the process of selling my Dual 2.0 GHz PPC. I was planning on replacing it with the Mac Pro 2.66 GHz. Should I consider holding off in the purchase of the new system. What potential impact would there be the system that I am considering buying?
On a forward thinking basis, what potential(speculation) revisions are possible to this system in the next 6 - 12 months?Know your workload. Do you use applications that are multi-core aware? Do you want to run them simultaneously? Do you want to run several applications simultaneously - each doing work at the same time? Leopard is bound to be very multi-core friendly since 4 cores will be the norm when it ships.
Since you have hung on to the Dual 2GHz model for far past its hayday, I'm thinking you don't need 8 cores. I had a Dual 2GHz G5 back in '04 and got the 2.5 soon as it went refurb early '05. By early '06 I was in a panic with not enough power to do my Multi-Threaded Workload. I was in a cold sweat when I ordered the Quad G5 in early February.
I found its limit within a few months and have been enthusiastically awaiting these 8-core Dual Clovertown Mac Pros since before the 4-core Mac Pro shipped.
Since that does not describe you, you may be happy with the 4 core Mac Pro. But if you can afford it and you do Video, 3D work, lots of heavy Photoshop processes and/or want to run a bunch of single core processes simultaneously in the course of a day and/or nights, you would be much better off in the long run with the upcoming 8-core. Figure with RAM it will run you around or above $4k. Does that work for you?
Oh, and I'm not selling my Quad G5 either. :)
On a forward thinking basis, what potential(speculation) revisions are possible to this system in the next 6 - 12 months?Know your workload. Do you use applications that are multi-core aware? Do you want to run them simultaneously? Do you want to run several applications simultaneously - each doing work at the same time? Leopard is bound to be very multi-core friendly since 4 cores will be the norm when it ships.
Since you have hung on to the Dual 2GHz model for far past its hayday, I'm thinking you don't need 8 cores. I had a Dual 2GHz G5 back in '04 and got the 2.5 soon as it went refurb early '05. By early '06 I was in a panic with not enough power to do my Multi-Threaded Workload. I was in a cold sweat when I ordered the Quad G5 in early February.
I found its limit within a few months and have been enthusiastically awaiting these 8-core Dual Clovertown Mac Pros since before the 4-core Mac Pro shipped.
Since that does not describe you, you may be happy with the 4 core Mac Pro. But if you can afford it and you do Video, 3D work, lots of heavy Photoshop processes and/or want to run a bunch of single core processes simultaneously in the course of a day and/or nights, you would be much better off in the long run with the upcoming 8-core. Figure with RAM it will run you around or above $4k. Does that work for you?
Oh, and I'm not selling my Quad G5 either. :)
Spectrum
Aug 29, 10:46 PM
Not all organic foods are actually organic.
Care to enlighten us?
Care to enlighten us?
Doctor Q
Mar 19, 12:31 PM
Seriously: if I walk in to a store and take CD from the shelf, and not pay it, I'm stealing. If I make an identical copy of the CD and leave the original on the shelf, I'm not stealing, I'm committing a copyright-infringment. But I'm not stealing.We've had this dictionary discussion before. But when a book author finds somebody using a photocopier to make a copy of their book instead of buying it, the word used doesn't matter as much as the fact you got something they were selling without paying.Same logic: if I take someone else's car, and drive away with it, I'm stealing it. But if I create an identical copy of the car (using a replicator I got from Star Trek) for myself, have I stolen anything? From whom have I stolen?Same logic: Musical artists aren't selling you round bits of plastic. They are selling you a copy of their music. Same logic: When you buy PhotoShop, you are buying more than the CD and some packaging. You are buying a license to use it, and even if you download a copy without taking something away from somebody else, you are getting something worth money and the owner/producer has reason to expect payment.I find it rather surprising how blindly people here defend Apple, even after seeing how they remove your rights little by little. How many times can you burn your iTunes-songs to CD? It used to be ten times. But Apple reduced it to seven.Yeah, and I wonder why they did that. It was at the same time they increased the number of Macs you can authorize, so overall it was an improvement. Maybe they were tinkering with their deal with the record labels.Then they removed the ability to share/stream your songs from itunes to others.I can't imagine how they made that mistake, allowing sharing over the Internet instead of only over LANs when anybody could tell you the record labels (yes, them again) would be up in arms.Little by little, you feel the DRM-noose tightening around your necks. It seems like a major PR-coup to me, when you have Apple reducing your rights little by little, and you guys are screaming "Yes! Reduce our rights even more!"I wonder if they could offer a new program: You get to have all DRM removed in exchange for burly RIAA enforcers paying you surprise visits whenever they like to check what you are listening to. I'm just kidding, but it's too bad that honest customers have to bear the burdens of dishonest customers, and that any of us have to feel hogtied.
darkwing
Aug 29, 11:51 AM
These groups don't care at all about the environment. They only want to hinder businesses. These are the same groups that protest plans and lobby politicians to stop building power plants and refineries so the existing ones can be over worked (lower efficiency) and not allow for downtime for maintenance, further lowering efficiency. These groups have an agenda that has nothing to do with the environment. I believe that Apple does just fine, as do many other companies. I'll gladly buy my Merom MBP and sell my Rev E 17" pbg4 as soon as Apple makes it available to me. :)
dudemac
Mar 20, 05:41 AM
It's not "law," it's law. You live in a country, I presume? That means you're bound to the laws of your government, whether you find them morally sound or not. If you don't agree with the laws, renounce your citizenship and start your own community. It's great that you have morals and that they drive you to an understanding of what is acceptable, but your morality does not place you above the law. Law is a common morality imposed to preserve order and protect rights. It's not perfect all the time, but neither is human reasoning (including morality). People cannot make decisions based on their personal beliefs and just what they can do, as this causes the strong to dominate the weak. Basic social theory. Law and governance serve to protect rights and to act as a guardian against actions that harm others. Acting based on the Will to Power will divide the strong from the weak, causing even greater "division" among people. The same reasoning you use for your position can be used against your position--the common logical fallacy of ignorance.
Do not confuse your personal beliefs with supremacy over the law. If you know the law, know the consequences of breaking the law, and still choose to do so, that's your decision as an individual. You might not think that it was wrong to do what you did, but correctness is not solely up to you. We do not live in a Nietzschean world, and if the government finds you in violation of laws, you must face the consequences. This software is wrong because it breaks laws and furthermore is used to gain something to which you are not entitled (which is wrong, even without the multiple laws saying so).
People will do what they choose, whether it's right or wrong. Doing the right thing is easy enough. But if it's wrong, they'll attempt to rationalize until they arrive at a way for them to believe it was right, or they'll justify the decision based on a series of other evils/corruptions to cloak the decision in a grey area. Neither changes the reality or frees you from the consequences or potential consequences.
The first part of you statement is not a very intelligent one. If you believe a law to be immoral or against the freedom of the people then it is your duty especially in this country to stand up against it, not cower away and create a separate place to dwell. If everyone took your stance then when major changes need to happen to our laws people would have gathered together to leave the country instead of trying to work and fix the problem and raise awareness of the problem. There are many issues that fall under this and for what seems a rather well reasoned argument it fails because of this. So ignoring your first statement, you are correct in stating that laws are used to keep order in society and they should serve the interest and rights of the people. As soon as the laws no longer server this purpose there will be tyranny. Freedom of the people should be the most important thing. If you look at your life today and ask the question am I really free, the answer might scare you. Just look how much control is exerted over you life before you even get to make one decision. And when this control is coming from corporate interests it makes you wonder why and how people let this happen. Corporate wellness should never super seed the well being of the the people or trample the freedom of the people. As soon as you take away the ability to protest and to sometimes break the laws to effect change you have crippled society. And this kind of thinking starts "real" wars.
As for does this break laws, yes, but to better understand it is more like speeding than say a conspiracy to pirate music. It has been said many times that you still have to pay for the music, you just get something that is free of control. Now if you where running a p2p out of you house or directly selling it this might be a problem(but it would be no different than doing this with ripped CD's). However most of us just want to be able to play this on non apple players. Or in my case at work where I can not log into my account.
Do not confuse your personal beliefs with supremacy over the law. If you know the law, know the consequences of breaking the law, and still choose to do so, that's your decision as an individual. You might not think that it was wrong to do what you did, but correctness is not solely up to you. We do not live in a Nietzschean world, and if the government finds you in violation of laws, you must face the consequences. This software is wrong because it breaks laws and furthermore is used to gain something to which you are not entitled (which is wrong, even without the multiple laws saying so).
People will do what they choose, whether it's right or wrong. Doing the right thing is easy enough. But if it's wrong, they'll attempt to rationalize until they arrive at a way for them to believe it was right, or they'll justify the decision based on a series of other evils/corruptions to cloak the decision in a grey area. Neither changes the reality or frees you from the consequences or potential consequences.
The first part of you statement is not a very intelligent one. If you believe a law to be immoral or against the freedom of the people then it is your duty especially in this country to stand up against it, not cower away and create a separate place to dwell. If everyone took your stance then when major changes need to happen to our laws people would have gathered together to leave the country instead of trying to work and fix the problem and raise awareness of the problem. There are many issues that fall under this and for what seems a rather well reasoned argument it fails because of this. So ignoring your first statement, you are correct in stating that laws are used to keep order in society and they should serve the interest and rights of the people. As soon as the laws no longer server this purpose there will be tyranny. Freedom of the people should be the most important thing. If you look at your life today and ask the question am I really free, the answer might scare you. Just look how much control is exerted over you life before you even get to make one decision. And when this control is coming from corporate interests it makes you wonder why and how people let this happen. Corporate wellness should never super seed the well being of the the people or trample the freedom of the people. As soon as you take away the ability to protest and to sometimes break the laws to effect change you have crippled society. And this kind of thinking starts "real" wars.
As for does this break laws, yes, but to better understand it is more like speeding than say a conspiracy to pirate music. It has been said many times that you still have to pay for the music, you just get something that is free of control. Now if you where running a p2p out of you house or directly selling it this might be a problem(but it would be no different than doing this with ripped CD's). However most of us just want to be able to play this on non apple players. Or in my case at work where I can not log into my account.
ksegel
Nov 10, 07:07 PM
I agree that it is mostly AT&T, don't get me wrong I love my iphone 3gs, but i have heard that there were issues for many people who were using 3gs and upgraded their phones, some had more dropped calls (which i seem to be having) and some had more serious problems.
http://www.maclife.com/article/news/ios_4_update_problems_plague_iphone_3g_users
I would love to get a I phone 4 and I'd love it if half the people who were using Iphones were on verizon so AT&T may actually be able to handle the usage on its network.
It is the fault of AT&T, not the iPhone. Every call I make gets dropped. It makes no difference if I use my iPhone 4 or my LG phone.
http://www.maclife.com/article/news/ios_4_update_problems_plague_iphone_3g_users
I would love to get a I phone 4 and I'd love it if half the people who were using Iphones were on verizon so AT&T may actually be able to handle the usage on its network.
It is the fault of AT&T, not the iPhone. Every call I make gets dropped. It makes no difference if I use my iPhone 4 or my LG phone.
rasmasyean
Mar 15, 03:21 PM
Looks like it. And BTW, I don't think the Japanese people would think leaving their homeland and going to the USA is a good idea. Not saying they don't like the US, but generally, just generally, people tend to care more about their own countries and cultures than about the American ones. Just saying.
I've found that most people don't care as much about their country as people believe (or say they do). They and their families well being come first above all else in almost ALL cases of people. They only care about the "country" when it benefits them in a way that they know (or are used to).
Not that I hope there is, but if there is nuclear a threat to their health, or their (future) children's health, you better bet they will move along to better pastures. How far...is the big question only time will answer.
As for "moving to the US" one of the reasons why the US is so "advanced" is not because of age old traditional Americans' feats, but the immigrants who were given the opportunity to migrate here to "escape" their country. You didn't think we invented rockety, did you? What about nuclear power? E=mc2 itself was discoverd by someone who really didn't love his country! And a whole slew of other things...like the early computers. Mostly all of this was by immigrants who left their country to go to "the land of opportunity". Whether you can say this is truly still "the land of opportunity" is still arguable...heck, maybe it's actually China like some ppl believe. But it's a wonder because if you follow some of the highest tech research and developments (often military in nature), the Ph.D.s that are involved usually have CHINESE names! Go figure... ;)
I've found that most people don't care as much about their country as people believe (or say they do). They and their families well being come first above all else in almost ALL cases of people. They only care about the "country" when it benefits them in a way that they know (or are used to).
Not that I hope there is, but if there is nuclear a threat to their health, or their (future) children's health, you better bet they will move along to better pastures. How far...is the big question only time will answer.
As for "moving to the US" one of the reasons why the US is so "advanced" is not because of age old traditional Americans' feats, but the immigrants who were given the opportunity to migrate here to "escape" their country. You didn't think we invented rockety, did you? What about nuclear power? E=mc2 itself was discoverd by someone who really didn't love his country! And a whole slew of other things...like the early computers. Mostly all of this was by immigrants who left their country to go to "the land of opportunity". Whether you can say this is truly still "the land of opportunity" is still arguable...heck, maybe it's actually China like some ppl believe. But it's a wonder because if you follow some of the highest tech research and developments (often military in nature), the Ph.D.s that are involved usually have CHINESE names! Go figure... ;)
ezekielrage_99
Aug 29, 11:17 PM
I think people are missing the point....
Anyway who really gives a crap what a bunch of pot smoking tree hugging hippies think.
I know I don't :cool:
Anyway who really gives a crap what a bunch of pot smoking tree hugging hippies think.
I know I don't :cool:
torbjoern
Apr 24, 03:22 PM
Were they of Pakistani/Bangladeshi origin by any chance? It seems in their culture to be possessive of their women.
CULTURE. Nothing to do with Islam!!!!!!!! Family of Pakistani origin.
Rebuttal provided.
People from Pakistan and Bangladesh blame a lot of "bad habits" on cultural influence from India (I., B. and P. used to be one country). However, I have never heard of Indians behaving like that in Western countries. How come it seems so easy for Indians to integrate in Western societies, yet so hard for Pakistanis/Bangladeshis? It used to be one country, so there must be something other than just "culture"... care to tell me what it is? I already have an idea and you know very well what it is, so I'm asking you now. What is the big difference here?
CULTURE. Nothing to do with Islam!!!!!!!! Family of Pakistani origin.
Rebuttal provided.
People from Pakistan and Bangladesh blame a lot of "bad habits" on cultural influence from India (I., B. and P. used to be one country). However, I have never heard of Indians behaving like that in Western countries. How come it seems so easy for Indians to integrate in Western societies, yet so hard for Pakistanis/Bangladeshis? It used to be one country, so there must be something other than just "culture"... care to tell me what it is? I already have an idea and you know very well what it is, so I'm asking you now. What is the big difference here?
Denarius
Mar 16, 01:08 PM
Perhaps it would be appropriate to have domestic nuclear reactors built, as a security measure and as part of the defence budget?
I don't think the military needs to. The steady increase in global energy prices makes nuclear economic. If government says the word, nuclear stations will spring up from the private sector.
Beyond that, independence from oil is a recipe for peace. At least for us...
I don't think the military needs to. The steady increase in global energy prices makes nuclear economic. If government says the word, nuclear stations will spring up from the private sector.
Beyond that, independence from oil is a recipe for peace. At least for us...
the vj
Apr 15, 10:03 AM
A few months ago I deleted and started to reject all the people I knew from high school in my Facebook, well, the ones that after almost 20 years came to me to add me as a friend but they were the ones that make my life a living hell and used me and took advantaged and then they turned their back on me.
You know what... get lost!
You know what... get lost!
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