Patch^
Sep 12, 06:38 PM
I Can't see Apple adding a DVR (TV recorder) because they want you to buy TV shows, Movies and Music off iTunes not off the TV! lol. If they did, people would probably stop buying content off iTunes.
In the future I'm sure we will see more HD Content on the iTunes store and some other features :) i.e. When broadband speeds increase a bit more (HD content is huge! Ever tried watching a HD Trailer? lol)
Also I hope they change the code-name from iTv to something else because there is a Television network in the UK called ITV :O...could get confusing and possible lawsuits.
(sorry if all of this has been mentioned already)
In the future I'm sure we will see more HD Content on the iTunes store and some other features :) i.e. When broadband speeds increase a bit more (HD content is huge! Ever tried watching a HD Trailer? lol)
Also I hope they change the code-name from iTv to something else because there is a Television network in the UK called ITV :O...could get confusing and possible lawsuits.
(sorry if all of this has been mentioned already)
SandboxGeneral
Mar 13, 09:44 AM
I'm all for nuclear power. It's the cleanest and usually the safest type of electricity available that can produce energy on a large scale.
There are inherent risks with nuclear power and there is the waste issue yet to be solved. But likewise, there are risks for other types of power, whether it's gas, oil, coal or even hydroelectric. Choose your poison.
As for the safety of nuclear energy, there are only two disasters that I know of, Chernobyl and Three Mile Island. I think there was a 3rd more minor one once, but I don't recall.
I'm sure there have been more disasters with all the other types of energy plants that have happened over time. However, when a nuclear plant has a problem, it's always going to be a big one.
Despite the risks of nuclear power, I still support it's use in countries that are responsible.
There are inherent risks with nuclear power and there is the waste issue yet to be solved. But likewise, there are risks for other types of power, whether it's gas, oil, coal or even hydroelectric. Choose your poison.
As for the safety of nuclear energy, there are only two disasters that I know of, Chernobyl and Three Mile Island. I think there was a 3rd more minor one once, but I don't recall.
I'm sure there have been more disasters with all the other types of energy plants that have happened over time. However, when a nuclear plant has a problem, it's always going to be a big one.
Despite the risks of nuclear power, I still support it's use in countries that are responsible.
Don't panic
Mar 14, 10:29 PM
authorities just expanded evacuation steps, reflecting worsening situations/new leaks
unlinked
Apr 9, 03:58 PM
Why would I do that?
People who have issues with uncontracted negative questions have been known to display a wide range of linguistic disorders.
People who have issues with uncontracted negative questions have been known to display a wide range of linguistic disorders.
spaceballl
Mar 18, 09:25 AM
To be honest, I'm not too upset by this. I've used an iPhone for tethering via jailbreak long before the official support came. I did that fully knowing that I was breaking the rules, and that ATT might mess with me, but they didn't offer an official plan so I knew the risks. I still jailbreak my phone and use MyWi, but I pay for an official tethering plan so I'm not breaking the rules.
slu
Sep 12, 03:32 PM
Could you please provide a link to the coverage? I never heard of this.
Are you serious? Check the front page much? :rolleyes:
Are you serious? Check the front page much? :rolleyes:
matticus008
Mar 20, 07:28 PM
Which is why copyright is a bunch of bull.
I think you missed the point of that one. h'biki was saying that if someone, let's say someone well-known, like Britney Spears, got a copy of your wedding video and used it to make a music video for her latest song, that it wouldn't hurt anyone. It'd just be infringing on copyright, after all, even though it's your face and your wedding that's now on MTV without your permission.
And to your earlier comment, yes, breaking the law is wrong. If the law is unfair and unjust, you change the law. The exception to this is when the law, again, as I said and you must have skipped, causes you direct personal or meaningful financial harm. Then you might have an argument for breaking the law. Otherwise, the right thing to do is to have the law changed. The digital music situation fits into this category. If you break the law, you don't encourage the law being changed, and there is no immediacy of threat to justify your illegal actions except that it's more convenient for you and that you don't care about the law. You're the reason DRM exists in the first place.
I think you missed the point of that one. h'biki was saying that if someone, let's say someone well-known, like Britney Spears, got a copy of your wedding video and used it to make a music video for her latest song, that it wouldn't hurt anyone. It'd just be infringing on copyright, after all, even though it's your face and your wedding that's now on MTV without your permission.
And to your earlier comment, yes, breaking the law is wrong. If the law is unfair and unjust, you change the law. The exception to this is when the law, again, as I said and you must have skipped, causes you direct personal or meaningful financial harm. Then you might have an argument for breaking the law. Otherwise, the right thing to do is to have the law changed. The digital music situation fits into this category. If you break the law, you don't encourage the law being changed, and there is no immediacy of threat to justify your illegal actions except that it's more convenient for you and that you don't care about the law. You're the reason DRM exists in the first place.
Bill McEnaney
Apr 23, 12:20 AM
I don't Know what type of Atheists you meet, but most of those in this forum(theists too :D) DO argue their beliefs and do not expect them to go unchecked.
Unchecked in what sense of the word "unchecked?"
Unchecked in what sense of the word "unchecked?"
HyperX13
Apr 15, 10:43 AM
Many church groups are trying to take away your our rights. We're just trying to be ourselves. I'm sorry, but I have no respect for any group that wants to take the rights of others. We are not trying to take anything form religious groups that don;t like us, but they are trying to take something form us. Big difference.
Exactly! I agree with you. I am a womanizer and I hate it when a church tells me I can't sleep with a different woman every night! I do plan on switching to polygamy and I hope the government gives me all the rights associated with my switch! Do you think Apple's womanizing employees will put out a video that it will be easier for me?
Exactly! I agree with you. I am a womanizer and I hate it when a church tells me I can't sleep with a different woman every night! I do plan on switching to polygamy and I hope the government gives me all the rights associated with my switch! Do you think Apple's womanizing employees will put out a video that it will be easier for me?
bchreng
Apr 10, 12:09 PM
Six of one, a half dozen of the other.
Big name is big name.
And yeah, really garbage. :rolleyes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_Games
Pretty impressive, I'd say. But it won't just be Epic. Others are and will follow. Rest assured.
A remake of their 2D sidesscrollers 'Jill of the Jungle' and Jazz Jackrabbit for iOS would be freaking awesome! I own an iPad 2 as well as a Nintendo DS and can say that my iPad is currently getting way more gaming use. The games are way cheaper, can be just as fun, control just as well, look better and are much easier to lug around.
Big name is big name.
And yeah, really garbage. :rolleyes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_Games
Pretty impressive, I'd say. But it won't just be Epic. Others are and will follow. Rest assured.
A remake of their 2D sidesscrollers 'Jill of the Jungle' and Jazz Jackrabbit for iOS would be freaking awesome! I own an iPad 2 as well as a Nintendo DS and can say that my iPad is currently getting way more gaming use. The games are way cheaper, can be just as fun, control just as well, look better and are much easier to lug around.
WestonHarvey1
Apr 15, 11:30 AM
So there is no big
BUT
?
Really?
;)
You are just being disingenuous. I think you just did not quote the part that says it is only OK with the Catholic church if gay men and women do not give physical expression to their gay "inclinations".
Makes it sound like leprosy�
All I'm doing is trying to argue that sure, there's plenty of stuff in there you're going to disagree with. And that's fine and I'm sure you'd have a lot of compelling arguments to refute the points.
But it's not *hateful*. I don't see how a rational being could find that hateful. That's just something that shuts down discussion and mischaracterizes an opponent.
BUT
?
Really?
;)
You are just being disingenuous. I think you just did not quote the part that says it is only OK with the Catholic church if gay men and women do not give physical expression to their gay "inclinations".
Makes it sound like leprosy�
All I'm doing is trying to argue that sure, there's plenty of stuff in there you're going to disagree with. And that's fine and I'm sure you'd have a lot of compelling arguments to refute the points.
But it's not *hateful*. I don't see how a rational being could find that hateful. That's just something that shuts down discussion and mischaracterizes an opponent.
skunk
Mar 14, 06:55 PM
@skunk:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HVDC_Inter-IslandVery interesting. Thanks. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HVDC_Inter-IslandVery interesting. Thanks. :)
Chupa Chupa
Apr 28, 07:39 AM
No surprise the iPad is just a fad and people are starting to realize how limited it is. Its frustrating on a lot of cool websites and no file system makes it very limited.
You apparently missed the part of the report that says:
A combination of strong Q4 sales and the announcement of the iPad 2's launch across major markets at the end of March contributed to Apple's iPad shipments being down 31% sequentially. The full impact of the iPad 2 launch will not register until subsequent quarters, as Apple gets the product into the hands of consumers.
Interpretation in english:
Two major factors contributing to the sequential decline of iPad sales this quarter:
1) A lot of consumers received an iPad 1 as a holiday gift and did not need a 2 and
2) Apple's larger multi-country launch caused inventory constraint and Apple was unable to sell more because they didn't have any excess to sell; i.e., it's a really popular device and we anticipate that being reflected in next quarter's sales report.
You apparently missed the part of the report that says:
A combination of strong Q4 sales and the announcement of the iPad 2's launch across major markets at the end of March contributed to Apple's iPad shipments being down 31% sequentially. The full impact of the iPad 2 launch will not register until subsequent quarters, as Apple gets the product into the hands of consumers.
Interpretation in english:
Two major factors contributing to the sequential decline of iPad sales this quarter:
1) A lot of consumers received an iPad 1 as a holiday gift and did not need a 2 and
2) Apple's larger multi-country launch caused inventory constraint and Apple was unable to sell more because they didn't have any excess to sell; i.e., it's a really popular device and we anticipate that being reflected in next quarter's sales report.
skunk
Apr 24, 10:50 AM
I'm just entertaining the notion of agnosticism as a kind of nod to the great debt we owe Judaism and Christianity. If it wasn't for those two faiths which allowed for reformations (such a thing would be impossible under, say, Islam) then secular Western democracies would be vastly different.What do you mean by "allowed for"? Do you mean that they could have slaughtered more people in the wars of religion? As for Islam, we probably would not have had a Renaissance without Islam.
If Europe had succumbed to the advance of Islam, if Vienna had fallen in the 17th century things likely would be very different today. Europe would have produced as many Nobel Prize winners as the entire Islamic WorldWe would all be speaking German I expect.
If Europe had succumbed to the advance of Islam, if Vienna had fallen in the 17th century things likely would be very different today. Europe would have produced as many Nobel Prize winners as the entire Islamic WorldWe would all be speaking German I expect.
aegisdesign
Sep 20, 06:56 AM
Yeah Ok, thats fine, but then I also need a machine to get content from my TV/tuner/satelite to my Mac.
Nope. That's what ElGato's EyeTV does. If Apple and ElGato can come together and add EyeTV support into iTV and Front Row over the next few months then you can chuck away your TV tuner, Freeview and stick your sat box hidden away next to your computer.
Then all you need under your TV is an iTV.
As I understand it, iTV is only for wireless streaming in one direction. If I need a cable to get broadcast programmes into my Mac, then I may as well use that cable to get the content back onto my TV!
Bingo. And that's why iTV doesn't include a TV tuner - you've already got one.
Nope. That's what ElGato's EyeTV does. If Apple and ElGato can come together and add EyeTV support into iTV and Front Row over the next few months then you can chuck away your TV tuner, Freeview and stick your sat box hidden away next to your computer.
Then all you need under your TV is an iTV.
As I understand it, iTV is only for wireless streaming in one direction. If I need a cable to get broadcast programmes into my Mac, then I may as well use that cable to get the content back onto my TV!
Bingo. And that's why iTV doesn't include a TV tuner - you've already got one.
Evangelion
Mar 20, 12:39 PM
We've had this dictionary discussion before.
And apparently it needs to be had again, since people STILL don't understand what the word means!
But when a book author finds somebody using a photocopier to make a copy of their book instead of buying it, the word used doesn't matter as much as the fact you got something they were selling without paying.
The word does matter, since the word carries with it certain meaning and different acts (described by different words) carry different penalties. If you hit me in the face, could I claim that you were trying to murder me? after all I could have died. Or are you saying that all of a sudden the word does matter?
Copying copyrighted material against the will of the copyright-holder is wrong, I'm not disputing that. What I am disputing is the notion that it's stealing. It's not, fair and square.
Same logic: Musical artists aren't selling you round bits of plastic. They are selling you a copy of their music. Same logic: When you buy PhotoShop, you are buying more than the CD and some packaging. You are buying a license to use it, and even if you download a copy without taking something away from somebody else, you are getting something worth money and the owner/producer has reason to expect payment.
What you are describing is copyright-infringment, not stealing. Of course, RIAA and the like would just LOVE to label those who download music as thieves, since that word has such strong negative connections. But they are not thieves and they are not stealing no matter how much RIAA tries to claim that they are.
And apparently it needs to be had again, since people STILL don't understand what the word means!
But when a book author finds somebody using a photocopier to make a copy of their book instead of buying it, the word used doesn't matter as much as the fact you got something they were selling without paying.
The word does matter, since the word carries with it certain meaning and different acts (described by different words) carry different penalties. If you hit me in the face, could I claim that you were trying to murder me? after all I could have died. Or are you saying that all of a sudden the word does matter?
Copying copyrighted material against the will of the copyright-holder is wrong, I'm not disputing that. What I am disputing is the notion that it's stealing. It's not, fair and square.
Same logic: Musical artists aren't selling you round bits of plastic. They are selling you a copy of their music. Same logic: When you buy PhotoShop, you are buying more than the CD and some packaging. You are buying a license to use it, and even if you download a copy without taking something away from somebody else, you are getting something worth money and the owner/producer has reason to expect payment.
What you are describing is copyright-infringment, not stealing. Of course, RIAA and the like would just LOVE to label those who download music as thieves, since that word has such strong negative connections. But they are not thieves and they are not stealing no matter how much RIAA tries to claim that they are.
mgamber
Jul 7, 12:47 PM
I've had a good experience with the new phone as well. With the 3G and 3GS, I was never, in two years, able to hold a call longer than 5 minutes before it was dropped. Seriously, not even one. Once I bought cases for the new phone and eliminated the antenna problem, I've held conversations over half an hour and then ended when I ended them, not when they were dropped, and data is at least 50% faster than it had been with previous phones. Same story with my son's new iPhone. I may still buy a repeater because I still get one bar and pitiful data speeds, but at least the phone can finally be used as a phone.
Per AT&T...on pre-order day I went to the local AT&T store to place my order and, as expected, it was complete bedlam. I put my name on the list and waited in line and was eventually called to the counter by "Troy" who took my order for two new phones, writing everything down and swiping the plastic thru the old fashioned imprint thing and everything. He told me that at some point AT&T was going to shut down the online store entirely so they could enter their orders, he'd get them in as soon as he could and sure enough, later that evening I received two emails, one per order entered. He also said that I wouldn't be sorry, the new phones were supposed to have much better reception. Fast forward a bit and I get a text message from Troy telling me that my phones had arrived and I could come in at any time to pick them up. So I go into the AT&T store and, once again, it's total bedlam. As Troy activates my phone, some idiot standing next to me is so mad that he can't just buy an iPhone that he slams his iPad on the counter so hard it breaks. I couldn't help it and laughed out loud and he stormed out. That's what kind of idiocy these people had to put up with. All done, both phones work and then Troy tells me that it was like pulling teeth but he got my 3rd line to be eligible, also. I had broken an iPhone six months ago and got an OOW replacement so it wasn't eligible for an upgrade. Somehow he managed to pull it off and did I want to get a new iPhone for that one, also. You bet! He'll shoot me a text message when it arrives.
About 20 minutes later I realized the phone had a problem with the antenna and needed a case. For some odd reason, a senior moment I guess, I went to the Apple store where I was greeted by two armed police and some girl who had attitude coming off of her like heat off a black sedan in summer. "What do YOU want?" she spat, never looking away from her oh-so-important iPad screen that never changed. I told her I bought a couple new iPhones and needed cases for them. "We don't have any" and that was the end of the "conversation". No suggesting I ask someone who wasn't an a**hole, no suggesting trying AT&T, nothing. So I walked the extra 100 feet to AT&T where a woman who wasn't busy being yelled at led me to a drawer full of cases, let me grab a couple and even open one to make sure I liked the look and so on. Later, when the AT&T surveys came, I made sure to give Troy and that woman the highest scores available.
So it depends on who you deal with. The folks at AT&T couldn't have been more pleasant and the whole thing couldn't have gone easier despite the circus going on around them. And I will never set foot in an Apple store again. They are the definition of needless, bulls**t arrogance. If my Macbook Pro, either Macbook, iMac, iPad or any of the 5 iPhones I own ever need serviced, I'll call and ask them to send a box rather than deal with that mall trash again.
Per AT&T...on pre-order day I went to the local AT&T store to place my order and, as expected, it was complete bedlam. I put my name on the list and waited in line and was eventually called to the counter by "Troy" who took my order for two new phones, writing everything down and swiping the plastic thru the old fashioned imprint thing and everything. He told me that at some point AT&T was going to shut down the online store entirely so they could enter their orders, he'd get them in as soon as he could and sure enough, later that evening I received two emails, one per order entered. He also said that I wouldn't be sorry, the new phones were supposed to have much better reception. Fast forward a bit and I get a text message from Troy telling me that my phones had arrived and I could come in at any time to pick them up. So I go into the AT&T store and, once again, it's total bedlam. As Troy activates my phone, some idiot standing next to me is so mad that he can't just buy an iPhone that he slams his iPad on the counter so hard it breaks. I couldn't help it and laughed out loud and he stormed out. That's what kind of idiocy these people had to put up with. All done, both phones work and then Troy tells me that it was like pulling teeth but he got my 3rd line to be eligible, also. I had broken an iPhone six months ago and got an OOW replacement so it wasn't eligible for an upgrade. Somehow he managed to pull it off and did I want to get a new iPhone for that one, also. You bet! He'll shoot me a text message when it arrives.
About 20 minutes later I realized the phone had a problem with the antenna and needed a case. For some odd reason, a senior moment I guess, I went to the Apple store where I was greeted by two armed police and some girl who had attitude coming off of her like heat off a black sedan in summer. "What do YOU want?" she spat, never looking away from her oh-so-important iPad screen that never changed. I told her I bought a couple new iPhones and needed cases for them. "We don't have any" and that was the end of the "conversation". No suggesting I ask someone who wasn't an a**hole, no suggesting trying AT&T, nothing. So I walked the extra 100 feet to AT&T where a woman who wasn't busy being yelled at led me to a drawer full of cases, let me grab a couple and even open one to make sure I liked the look and so on. Later, when the AT&T surveys came, I made sure to give Troy and that woman the highest scores available.
So it depends on who you deal with. The folks at AT&T couldn't have been more pleasant and the whole thing couldn't have gone easier despite the circus going on around them. And I will never set foot in an Apple store again. They are the definition of needless, bulls**t arrogance. If my Macbook Pro, either Macbook, iMac, iPad or any of the 5 iPhones I own ever need serviced, I'll call and ask them to send a box rather than deal with that mall trash again.
Huntn
Mar 15, 07:12 PM
I did a little reading and now am a one minute expert... :p
I've read these reactors did auto shut down when the earthquake hit. The problem is that the rods create tremendous persistent heat even after a shutdown, and it is the lack of cooling water that is causing the problem.
Could it be considered a myth that any nuclear reactor can be expected to automatically safely shutdown when power to all safety systems are lost no matter how it is designed?
And who was saying this could not be like Chernobyl??
I've read these reactors did auto shut down when the earthquake hit. The problem is that the rods create tremendous persistent heat even after a shutdown, and it is the lack of cooling water that is causing the problem.
Could it be considered a myth that any nuclear reactor can be expected to automatically safely shutdown when power to all safety systems are lost no matter how it is designed?
And who was saying this could not be like Chernobyl??
CoryTV
Apr 12, 10:33 PM
Ugh... you guys speak as if you are all full-time film editors...
The new features are amazing! The hall that they presented at, well they were pretty much all "pros" in the industry. They were all pretty much PSYCHED about these features..
For what it's worth, I'm a film production major...
I'm a full time professional editor who has edited on Avid since 1997 and FCP since 2005.. Does that not count? Almost every 'pro film' editor I have ever met (and I'm talking people who make hollywood films) barely knows how to turn the machine on.
The new features are amazing! The hall that they presented at, well they were pretty much all "pros" in the industry. They were all pretty much PSYCHED about these features..
For what it's worth, I'm a film production major...
I'm a full time professional editor who has edited on Avid since 1997 and FCP since 2005.. Does that not count? Almost every 'pro film' editor I have ever met (and I'm talking people who make hollywood films) barely knows how to turn the machine on.
bryanc
Aug 29, 12:28 PM
I have to say, I am APPALLED by the irresponsible attitude of some people on this forum (and probably the world). Businesses, corporations, governments, AND individuals should all be behaving in a socially and environmentally responsible manner. This is in no way "anti-progress". When did you all gain the right to be so selfish, self-centred, and bigoted in your beliefs?
Hear, hear! What's up with all of you Apple Boosters? I think my Macs are great, and OS X is clearly the best OS on the planet today, but this report is very disappointing.
Rather than turning a blind eye to the irresponsible policies at Apple, and saying the Greenpeace is just anti-technology (they're big supporters of many innovative energy technologies, BTW), why not do what you can, as an Apple customer, to change the way Apple does business.
I've submitted feedback to Apple in the past about their wasteful packaging, and have been pleasantly surprised not only by their considerate replies, but the fact that they've changed their packaging to be less wasteful. Apple listens to their customers. If they know we care about the environment, they'll change their practices to be more sustainable.
I would like to have seen Apple respond to this as a challenge, by saying that they appreciate the constructive criticism and look forward to implementing changes in their practises and achieving top marks in the next Greenpeace analysis. If enough Apple customers make it clear that this should be a priority, it will become one.
Cheers
Hear, hear! What's up with all of you Apple Boosters? I think my Macs are great, and OS X is clearly the best OS on the planet today, but this report is very disappointing.
Rather than turning a blind eye to the irresponsible policies at Apple, and saying the Greenpeace is just anti-technology (they're big supporters of many innovative energy technologies, BTW), why not do what you can, as an Apple customer, to change the way Apple does business.
I've submitted feedback to Apple in the past about their wasteful packaging, and have been pleasantly surprised not only by their considerate replies, but the fact that they've changed their packaging to be less wasteful. Apple listens to their customers. If they know we care about the environment, they'll change their practices to be more sustainable.
I would like to have seen Apple respond to this as a challenge, by saying that they appreciate the constructive criticism and look forward to implementing changes in their practises and achieving top marks in the next Greenpeace analysis. If enough Apple customers make it clear that this should be a priority, it will become one.
Cheers
Peterkro
Mar 13, 05:06 PM
You all seem to be ignoring the elephant in the room.
The spiralling demand for still more energy.
Someone mentioned California, and their inordinate requirement for 'more power' <ugh, ugh ... thank you Tim>.
How about we stop with the over-population, and working everyone 24-7?
Farmers used to get up with the Sun, and went to bed when it set.
If there is a lost tribe still somewhere that is flourishing, I hope that they never get "discovered".
I hope you're not including me in that as I've posted several times on the very subject.I'm not a Malthusian but I agree that human population is something we need to look at,every child a wanted child and cared for child for instance.Why do westerners use so much energy?Because they are not in touch with their environment,airconditioning in cars and homes?wtf for there are technologies hundreds of years old that can deal with that.To me it appears a lot of people work harder and harder for less and less.Bah humans in general are eejits.
The spiralling demand for still more energy.
Someone mentioned California, and their inordinate requirement for 'more power' <ugh, ugh ... thank you Tim>.
How about we stop with the over-population, and working everyone 24-7?
Farmers used to get up with the Sun, and went to bed when it set.
If there is a lost tribe still somewhere that is flourishing, I hope that they never get "discovered".
I hope you're not including me in that as I've posted several times on the very subject.I'm not a Malthusian but I agree that human population is something we need to look at,every child a wanted child and cared for child for instance.Why do westerners use so much energy?Because they are not in touch with their environment,airconditioning in cars and homes?wtf for there are technologies hundreds of years old that can deal with that.To me it appears a lot of people work harder and harder for less and less.Bah humans in general are eejits.
100Teraflops
Apr 21, 05:09 PM
CMD+Q does the same thing, either from within the app, or when it's highlighted when using CMD+TAB to cycle between open apps.
Thanks for the shorthand! :cool:
Thanks for the shorthand! :cool:
entatlrg
Apr 24, 11:55 AM
It's just another way of the 'stronger minded' to power and control the 'weaker minded' in the world. That's it.
Rt&Dzine
Apr 27, 06:52 PM
Nope, sorry, no fun "regardless", for others have a dim view of any speculation outside their own pre-conceived notions.
It's no more "fun" than arguing that one knows that God exists or does not.
I was referring to the believers.
It's no more "fun" than arguing that one knows that God exists or does not.
I was referring to the believers.
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