
PhantomPumpkin
Apr 21, 08:55 AM
Which is ironic considering Steve Jobs lamented the carriers walled garden. I love my iPhone, but I also understand that I traded AT&Ts walled garden for Apples.
How exactly did AT&T have a walled garden, at least in the same sense as Apple? Normally I'm against that much control, but I don't think it bothers me as much because there are other options.
I'd probably be less okay with Apple's garden if my choices were only Apple, and I've been a fan of/user of since OS 7.
How exactly did AT&T have a walled garden, at least in the same sense as Apple? Normally I'm against that much control, but I don't think it bothers me as much because there are other options.
I'd probably be less okay with Apple's garden if my choices were only Apple, and I've been a fan of/user of since OS 7.
tigress666
Apr 9, 11:43 AM
Wait? There's no need to wait. You are doing yourself a disservice. Do yourself a favor. Go to one of your friends houses, one with a PS3 or Xbox and at least a 37 inch TV. Play Assassin's Creed or Prince of Persia. Come back and tell us what's the difference.
Yeah, of course there is a difference on a console. I thought we were comparing hand helds. And I'm not claiming the iphone is the best experience for a lot of games (notice that I've pretty much said that PoP and Assassin's Creed would do better with buttons but for my purposes it's still fun on touchscreen).
I'm not claiming I'm some sort of hard core gamer.
But what I am claiming, is that there are *good* games on the iphone that are more than just "timewasters" (Well, honestly, any game is a "timewaster" if you think about it. Do you really think you do anything productive when you game? No. You do it for fun in your free time). But there are games that you can get into and play for more than five minutes (stuff that isn't the Angry Birds type game). Games that have me put down my computer and actually focus on them for long periods of time. I'm really happy to see that happen more on the iphone. I love that Square has started putting games on (if you can't tell, they're one of my favorite game makers ;). But Gameloft has started getting my love too).
That's what I'm saying.
Let me watch you play those on the subway. This is all about portable gaming.
Pretty much. It's kinda stupid to compare the iphone to a PS3 or Xbox. That's apples and oranges. No handheld is going to compare to something like that, if nothing else for having a large screen and a controller that really is designed to be a controller (and not a controller and a screen in one. No handheld can be as easy to use as a controller as a dedicated controller, which btw, I totally prefer the Playstation's/Playstation 2 controller. That was the most ergonomic controller I've experienced but I haven't had a console since the PS2. It's about as much difference in experience as a touch screen vs. buttons really. I always find handheld games are more awkward to control and have my hands cramp up. But the point of them is portability so you do make compromises).
True, some iPad/iPhone games are "casual time wasters" but there are also some FANTASTIC games. Dead Space iOS is fantastic and guess what, ITS WAS 10 DOLLARS. True, its not as good as the console versions, but those sold for 60 DOLLARS.
And this is exactly what I'm trying to say :).

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Yeah, of course there is a difference on a console. I thought we were comparing hand helds. And I'm not claiming the iphone is the best experience for a lot of games (notice that I've pretty much said that PoP and Assassin's Creed would do better with buttons but for my purposes it's still fun on touchscreen).
I'm not claiming I'm some sort of hard core gamer.
But what I am claiming, is that there are *good* games on the iphone that are more than just "timewasters" (Well, honestly, any game is a "timewaster" if you think about it. Do you really think you do anything productive when you game? No. You do it for fun in your free time). But there are games that you can get into and play for more than five minutes (stuff that isn't the Angry Birds type game). Games that have me put down my computer and actually focus on them for long periods of time. I'm really happy to see that happen more on the iphone. I love that Square has started putting games on (if you can't tell, they're one of my favorite game makers ;). But Gameloft has started getting my love too).
That's what I'm saying.
Let me watch you play those on the subway. This is all about portable gaming.
Pretty much. It's kinda stupid to compare the iphone to a PS3 or Xbox. That's apples and oranges. No handheld is going to compare to something like that, if nothing else for having a large screen and a controller that really is designed to be a controller (and not a controller and a screen in one. No handheld can be as easy to use as a controller as a dedicated controller, which btw, I totally prefer the Playstation's/Playstation 2 controller. That was the most ergonomic controller I've experienced but I haven't had a console since the PS2. It's about as much difference in experience as a touch screen vs. buttons really. I always find handheld games are more awkward to control and have my hands cramp up. But the point of them is portability so you do make compromises).
True, some iPad/iPhone games are "casual time wasters" but there are also some FANTASTIC games. Dead Space iOS is fantastic and guess what, ITS WAS 10 DOLLARS. True, its not as good as the console versions, but those sold for 60 DOLLARS.
And this is exactly what I'm trying to say :).
munkery
May 2, 06:23 PM
Vulnerabilities are found in everything. It's not like sudo, RBAC or any other Unix scheme that's similar to Windows' UAC/RunAs has been vulnerability free all these years. This is besides the point that UAC is not somehow inferior. It's just an implementation of limited privilege escalation, same as you find on Unix systems. "Unix security" is not being any better here.
Really,
Here is a list of privilege escalation (UAC bypass) vulnerabilities just related to Stuxnet (win32k.sys) in Windows in 2011:
http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey....in32k.sys+2011
Here is a list of all of the privilege escalation vulnerabilities in Mac OS X in 2011:
http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey....rivileges+2011
BTW, the system call for that local in OS X was no longer needed so it was removed from OS X. It was only used in relation to 32 bit processes.
Have I claimed such a beasts exists ? No. Why should I then be made to provide an example of it ?
Why are you going on and on about something that is not a common threat in the wild?
Really,
Here is a list of privilege escalation (UAC bypass) vulnerabilities just related to Stuxnet (win32k.sys) in Windows in 2011:
http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey....in32k.sys+2011
Here is a list of all of the privilege escalation vulnerabilities in Mac OS X in 2011:
http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey....rivileges+2011
BTW, the system call for that local in OS X was no longer needed so it was removed from OS X. It was only used in relation to 32 bit processes.
Have I claimed such a beasts exists ? No. Why should I then be made to provide an example of it ?
Why are you going on and on about something that is not a common threat in the wild?

manu chao
Mar 19, 11:50 AM
By using Jon's tool, you KNOWINGLY and WILLINGLY are violating an agreement that you yourself agreed to.
And if you use an Apple or AOL ID, Apple knows who is violating the agreement.
Even if the current iTMS server protocol cannot distinguish between iTunes and PyMusique, it should be quite easy to figure out how to do that distinction once Apple has its own copy of PyMusique. Then Apple can go over its server logs and get a list of the people who have used PyMusique.
Use at your own risk (or use at least gift certificates...).
And if you use an Apple or AOL ID, Apple knows who is violating the agreement.
Even if the current iTMS server protocol cannot distinguish between iTunes and PyMusique, it should be quite easy to figure out how to do that distinction once Apple has its own copy of PyMusique. Then Apple can go over its server logs and get a list of the people who have used PyMusique.
Use at your own risk (or use at least gift certificates...).
AppliedVisual
Oct 31, 11:59 PM
Sorry for the noob question, but does anyone know how well Maya 7 will scale with 8 cores? My buddy is debating whether to buy a single Kentsfield or step up to dual Clovertons. He has a freelance business in which he uses Maya 7 quite a bit. Thanks.
Well the Maya application itself won't benefit anymore from 8 cores than it would from 2 or 4. But 8-cores will help immensely with rendering, especially if he uses MentalRay and has enough licenses. Currently Maya Complete has 2 licenses and Maya Unlimited has 8. I'm not sure how the Maya licenses will apply to quad-core CPUs just yet.
Well the Maya application itself won't benefit anymore from 8 cores than it would from 2 or 4. But 8-cores will help immensely with rendering, especially if he uses MentalRay and has enough licenses. Currently Maya Complete has 2 licenses and Maya Unlimited has 8. I'm not sure how the Maya licenses will apply to quad-core CPUs just yet.
Don't panic
Mar 14, 04:02 PM
there were actually three redundant cooling systems, but they all failed.
in honesty i think it's unfair to claim that they were unprepared, or that there were maintenance safety protocol issues.
what they went through was unprecedented, and beyond the worst case scenarios they were designed for, so if the accident is fully contained (which unfortunately seems less likely as time goes by) the whole system should be commended.
of course, this all should be a pricey lesson to e learned from, but it could have been a lot worse. a lot.
Also, i was actually positively surprised by how direct and candid the japanese gov has been, after a bit of stonewalling at the beginning. not sure the same would have happened elsewhere.
in honesty i think it's unfair to claim that they were unprepared, or that there were maintenance safety protocol issues.
what they went through was unprecedented, and beyond the worst case scenarios they were designed for, so if the accident is fully contained (which unfortunately seems less likely as time goes by) the whole system should be commended.
of course, this all should be a pricey lesson to e learned from, but it could have been a lot worse. a lot.
Also, i was actually positively surprised by how direct and candid the japanese gov has been, after a bit of stonewalling at the beginning. not sure the same would have happened elsewhere.
rasmasyean
Apr 23, 02:24 AM
as for suicide bombers knowing that there is a God or Allah ... they are just strong believers ... IMO they "know" nothing and soon find themselves blown into complete silence
This is just a form of soldier conditioning. Don't fool yourself into thinking we don't do this to our own soldiers. That's why we get them when they are young 18 year olds who are impressionable and tell them they are doing this for "god and country". The good wolves will "go to heaven" protecting the sheep. "God Speed" in their mission. Being sent out to get blown up by an IED is as cannon fodderish as strapping one to your chest. The only difference is that the latter tactic is used in times of despiration against an overwhelmingly powerful enemy. Just like Kamakazis, Viet Cong, etc. And now these ppl make our TV's and clothing. ;)
This is just a form of soldier conditioning. Don't fool yourself into thinking we don't do this to our own soldiers. That's why we get them when they are young 18 year olds who are impressionable and tell them they are doing this for "god and country". The good wolves will "go to heaven" protecting the sheep. "God Speed" in their mission. Being sent out to get blown up by an IED is as cannon fodderish as strapping one to your chest. The only difference is that the latter tactic is used in times of despiration against an overwhelmingly powerful enemy. Just like Kamakazis, Viet Cong, etc. And now these ppl make our TV's and clothing. ;)
0815
May 2, 11:10 AM
Please wake me up when there is a real thread that requires no user interaction. Even if they found a way to start the installer automatically (I at least don't allow any downloads to be opened automatically) , why would I hit continue to install once the installer pops up?
Yes, the biggest thread to security is sitting in front of the computer and if you click blindly 'continue' and 'ok' to every pop up, well, nobody can help you than anyway. I survived windows (since 3.1) without getting any virus/malware and I am confident that I will survive macOS without any (once real threads are there) ... just use common sense.
Yes, the biggest thread to security is sitting in front of the computer and if you click blindly 'continue' and 'ok' to every pop up, well, nobody can help you than anyway. I survived windows (since 3.1) without getting any virus/malware and I am confident that I will survive macOS without any (once real threads are there) ... just use common sense.

Dr.Gargoyle
Aug 29, 02:59 PM
The point is that Greenpeace opposes ALL R&D into GM foods, just as G.W. opposes ALL R&D into stem cell research, including research to use stem cells w/o harming the fetus.
First, R&D should never be banned. However, we should not implement everything we find out in our labs. It is a huge difference in getting to know how we can alter the genetical code and actually do it in a grand scale. THAT if anything will be our end.
Stem cells is an entirely different story. That is a political/religious question about when life begins and also OT.
First, R&D should never be banned. However, we should not implement everything we find out in our labs. It is a huge difference in getting to know how we can alter the genetical code and actually do it in a grand scale. THAT if anything will be our end.
Stem cells is an entirely different story. That is a political/religious question about when life begins and also OT.
ABernardoJr
Apr 20, 09:37 PM
Is that a prerequisite? I have Apple battery charger.
lol It is not a prerequisite, but it might become a bit problematic when assumptions like these are made:
I don't. I just don't have OS/X. I just assumed that OS/X might not have it since some OS/X users here were confused about Windows hiding system files. :)
I'm not saying the assumption was true or false but assumptions on things that can be clarified by having the product certainly make it seem that it might help lol
lol It is not a prerequisite, but it might become a bit problematic when assumptions like these are made:
I don't. I just don't have OS/X. I just assumed that OS/X might not have it since some OS/X users here were confused about Windows hiding system files. :)
I'm not saying the assumption was true or false but assumptions on things that can be clarified by having the product certainly make it seem that it might help lol
arn
Oct 25, 10:32 PM
It would be the first for Apple. :cool:
If the pricing is any indication, the (low end) Quad Core 2.33GHz Clovertown is the same price as the (high end) 3.0GHz Dual-core Xeon...
so unless the bottom of the line Mac Pro is expected to start at $3298, the current Dual-Core Xeon Mac Pros will stick around.
arn
If the pricing is any indication, the (low end) Quad Core 2.33GHz Clovertown is the same price as the (high end) 3.0GHz Dual-core Xeon...
so unless the bottom of the line Mac Pro is expected to start at $3298, the current Dual-Core Xeon Mac Pros will stick around.
arn
Cheerwino
Apr 9, 08:32 PM
"In my day" a hardcore gamer was someone that custom built a gaming rig consisting of no less then 2 graphics cards (add a third and get SLI + PhysX), each costing at least if not more then a single PS3, the most expensive 'extreme' cpu they could find, and a small nuclear power plant for a PSU, then boasting about their 3D Mark scores.
Hmmm, in my day, a hardcore gamer was someone with a pocket full of quarters.;)
Hmmm, in my day, a hardcore gamer was someone with a pocket full of quarters.;)

LQYoshi
Apr 11, 10:54 AM
I think you'll love your Mac mini, I'm a big fan of the form factor.
As far as you father, I expect he'll be impressed with it if he's not a tech person. I know people always seemed impressed the Mac mini was a full computer, and OS X makes it even cool.
If he is a tech person, he might insist that PCs are cheaper, but not in the same form factor(its rather hard to find a simiar PC with Intel chip...Dell makes the Zino HD, but it runs on AMD) And you can always run XP/Windows 7 to make him happy.
True true. It seems like a lot of money but it should be worth it. I've wanted this a long time.
Would it be possible/legal to create a Virtual machine on my mac mini running OSX Lion (when it's released) if I don't want to upgrade from Snow Leopard to Lion on my mini (when I get it/lion is out)?
As far as you father, I expect he'll be impressed with it if he's not a tech person. I know people always seemed impressed the Mac mini was a full computer, and OS X makes it even cool.
If he is a tech person, he might insist that PCs are cheaper, but not in the same form factor(its rather hard to find a simiar PC with Intel chip...Dell makes the Zino HD, but it runs on AMD) And you can always run XP/Windows 7 to make him happy.
True true. It seems like a lot of money but it should be worth it. I've wanted this a long time.
Would it be possible/legal to create a Virtual machine on my mac mini running OSX Lion (when it's released) if I don't want to upgrade from Snow Leopard to Lion on my mini (when I get it/lion is out)?
rdowns
Mar 15, 07:53 AM
Come to think of it...it wouldn't be too bad if Japan had to mass evacuate because of contamination. I mean, that place might eventually like blow up and flood at some point in the future right? It looks like it's on the verge of happening actually.
That would be pretty cool if they evacuated now. I mean, where would they go you may ask? I think they would mostly come the the US. I mean, we sort of helped them build their country up after WWII and we've always had pretty strong ties. Our economy is similar too.
Hey, we'll take Toyota, and Sony, and Mitsubishi...and heck, whatever can fit on the barges. :) I think it would be pretty symbiotic too as we use a lot of their crap anyway so might as well bring it all home. They have like the best manufacturing in the world and the US can use some of that today. We have lots of barren land all over the place that can be used for industry and Japanese ppl have the money to build here, rather than in the expensive cramped up island of theirs. Jobs for all! woot!
wtf?
http://pic.phyrefile.com/n/na/narf/2010/06/14/facepalm.jpg
That would be pretty cool if they evacuated now. I mean, where would they go you may ask? I think they would mostly come the the US. I mean, we sort of helped them build their country up after WWII and we've always had pretty strong ties. Our economy is similar too.
Hey, we'll take Toyota, and Sony, and Mitsubishi...and heck, whatever can fit on the barges. :) I think it would be pretty symbiotic too as we use a lot of their crap anyway so might as well bring it all home. They have like the best manufacturing in the world and the US can use some of that today. We have lots of barren land all over the place that can be used for industry and Japanese ppl have the money to build here, rather than in the expensive cramped up island of theirs. Jobs for all! woot!
wtf?
http://pic.phyrefile.com/n/na/narf/2010/06/14/facepalm.jpg
aegisdesign
Oct 26, 05:11 AM
JUST IMAGINE A COMPUTER IN WHICH EACH PIXEL IS CONTROLLED BY A SINGLE PROCESSOR.
I've used one. Back in the 1980s, beginning of the 90s. The low end model had 1024 processors and the high end model 4096 processors. It was a pig to program. When drawing on the screen you split the task at hand up into many parallel threads each drawing a part of the screen. Not quite 1 CPU per pixel but you get the idea.
I've used one. Back in the 1980s, beginning of the 90s. The low end model had 1024 processors and the high end model 4096 processors. It was a pig to program. When drawing on the screen you split the task at hand up into many parallel threads each drawing a part of the screen. Not quite 1 CPU per pixel but you get the idea.
OllyW
Apr 28, 08:02 AM
Horrible headline.
You do not "slip" upwards.
If you had read the first post you would realise they were in third place last quarter.
Dropping to fourth is not slipping upwards.
You do not "slip" upwards.
If you had read the first post you would realise they were in third place last quarter.
Dropping to fourth is not slipping upwards.

emotion
Sep 20, 08:27 AM
Problem is, doing a PVR would be extremely expensive. Other than things like Tivo that have monthly fees, PVR's haven't really caught on, and the price is the biggest reason.
This must be a US-centric view. Here (UK) PVRs with twin Freeview (DTT) tuners and 80GB HDs are everywhere. And they are very cheap now (120 quid upwards).
I'm thinking of ditching my cable provider (NTL, I only get it for Sky One, which is just Simpsons repeats) and going with something like this:
http://www.topfield.co.uk/terrestrialequipment.htm
Apparently you can DL what you record to your Mac (USB). I suspect you'll then be able to play that on iTV.
This must be a US-centric view. Here (UK) PVRs with twin Freeview (DTT) tuners and 80GB HDs are everywhere. And they are very cheap now (120 quid upwards).
I'm thinking of ditching my cable provider (NTL, I only get it for Sky One, which is just Simpsons repeats) and going with something like this:
http://www.topfield.co.uk/terrestrialequipment.htm
Apparently you can DL what you record to your Mac (USB). I suspect you'll then be able to play that on iTV.

63dot
Apr 23, 04:03 PM
I believe in God or a higher power as some would call it.
However, I do understand atheists and people who ask, "Is there a God if this or that terrible event happens?" (war, gang violence, greedy corporations, etc.)
People know where I stand when I quote them John 3:16 from the Bible and once anybody reads the Bible in its context in the New Testament, they will realize that God is not a referee and we have our free will. Part of free will is having the human race run things and so far, things have been pretty bad.
The hope is, some say (including me), is that the human race may come to the conclusion that man is the most evil species (and destructive species) ever to live on this planet. We as a species don't deserve to be on top of the food chain.
Let's just say for a second there is no God. Then what a sad planet we live on if the future is up to us humans. my two cents
That being said, there is a lot of good people on earth, perhaps a majority of people. But the evil people, especially the ones with power/money/weapons, are more than enough to destroy this planet and frankly, I am surprised we are still here. I could say it's because God intervened but since the departure of Christ, and before the second coming, the human race is all alone on this planet and in the way of any maladies we create for ourselves. Who knows if God is letting us alone to learn a lesson, or learn to treat each other better, but the process has been painful of man trying to govern themselves and simply get along with each other and the environment they live in.
However, I do understand atheists and people who ask, "Is there a God if this or that terrible event happens?" (war, gang violence, greedy corporations, etc.)
People know where I stand when I quote them John 3:16 from the Bible and once anybody reads the Bible in its context in the New Testament, they will realize that God is not a referee and we have our free will. Part of free will is having the human race run things and so far, things have been pretty bad.
The hope is, some say (including me), is that the human race may come to the conclusion that man is the most evil species (and destructive species) ever to live on this planet. We as a species don't deserve to be on top of the food chain.
Let's just say for a second there is no God. Then what a sad planet we live on if the future is up to us humans. my two cents
That being said, there is a lot of good people on earth, perhaps a majority of people. But the evil people, especially the ones with power/money/weapons, are more than enough to destroy this planet and frankly, I am surprised we are still here. I could say it's because God intervened but since the departure of Christ, and before the second coming, the human race is all alone on this planet and in the way of any maladies we create for ourselves. Who knows if God is letting us alone to learn a lesson, or learn to treat each other better, but the process has been painful of man trying to govern themselves and simply get along with each other and the environment they live in.
NebulaClash
Apr 28, 03:42 PM
Will the "cloud" be hosted by Amazon in their North Virginia datacenter? :eek:
I'm sure users will love that "cloud", at least as much as they love the Playstation network...
Yup, and early PCs had bugs too. Keep living in the past . . .
I'm sure users will love that "cloud", at least as much as they love the Playstation network...
Yup, and early PCs had bugs too. Keep living in the past . . .
alex_ant
Oct 9, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by gopher
Only we have some people come on this board who claim that the Mac is much slower. For what purpose?
To show people that Macs are not as fast as Apple claims them to be, and to send Apple a message that they need to get their hardware in gear already. "We" want Apple to succeed as much as you do. What we don't want is for Apple to become complacent, as it has recently, and sell nothing but high-priced boxes full of yesterday's technology. (PC100/133 across the board, and crippled DDR in the Power Macs. No Firewire2, no USB2, no ATA-133. Is this 2002 or is it 1999?)
And Arne, if you are reading these boards, please delete clearly PC biased hate posts ASAP.
Silence your opposition - fabulous.
Only we have some people come on this board who claim that the Mac is much slower. For what purpose?
To show people that Macs are not as fast as Apple claims them to be, and to send Apple a message that they need to get their hardware in gear already. "We" want Apple to succeed as much as you do. What we don't want is for Apple to become complacent, as it has recently, and sell nothing but high-priced boxes full of yesterday's technology. (PC100/133 across the board, and crippled DDR in the Power Macs. No Firewire2, no USB2, no ATA-133. Is this 2002 or is it 1999?)
And Arne, if you are reading these boards, please delete clearly PC biased hate posts ASAP.
Silence your opposition - fabulous.
MacCoaster
Oct 13, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by javajedi
You are absolutely 110% correct. We've allready dismissed BackToTheMac's outlandish fallacies though :)
I think he gets the picture now....
Yup. Proven technology. I sure hope he gets the picture.
You are absolutely 110% correct. We've allready dismissed BackToTheMac's outlandish fallacies though :)
I think he gets the picture now....
Yup. Proven technology. I sure hope he gets the picture.
takao
Mar 14, 12:31 PM
His worry seems to center around the possibility of a hydrogen explosion inside of the containment vessel causing a wall breech. He also believes that the previous hydrogen explosion was due to gas escaping in an unplanned manner.
AFAIK the problem with reactor 2 is now that the pressure inside the containment is very,very high because of damaged valves preventing steam from escaping in a controlled manner. thus they cant simply pump in more and more water to cool the currently not covered fuel rods because it would dramatically increase the pressure and thus risk containment damages
so they are currently walking the fine line between risking the containment by pumping in water and a meltdown if they don't.. hardly a situation anybody wants to be
AFAIK the problem with reactor 2 is now that the pressure inside the containment is very,very high because of damaged valves preventing steam from escaping in a controlled manner. thus they cant simply pump in more and more water to cool the currently not covered fuel rods because it would dramatically increase the pressure and thus risk containment damages
so they are currently walking the fine line between risking the containment by pumping in water and a meltdown if they don't.. hardly a situation anybody wants to be
firewood
Apr 21, 11:18 AM
You must live in a alternate univerise if think that Apple users are tech savy.
Walk into the engineering or computer science department of a top university. I have, and I see lots and lots of Macs and iPhones. Even at Google's own developer events, I see more MacBooks than HP laptops, or any other brand in particular.
Walk into the engineering or computer science department of a top university. I have, and I see lots and lots of Macs and iPhones. Even at Google's own developer events, I see more MacBooks than HP laptops, or any other brand in particular.
Apple OC
Apr 24, 04:53 PM
Many people say this, but they fail at the point where actions are of culture and not representative of the religion itself.
I invite you to demonstrate how Islam is a threat to freedom and democracy.
I guess all this honour killing pretty much explains the original theory how freedom of women has been affected
thanks again edifyingG for presenting some very valid points
I invite you to demonstrate how Islam is a threat to freedom and democracy.
I guess all this honour killing pretty much explains the original theory how freedom of women has been affected
thanks again edifyingG for presenting some very valid points
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